PCDVD數位科技討論區
PCDVD數位科技討論區   註冊 常見問題 標記討論區為已讀

回到   PCDVD數位科技討論區 > 數位影音討論群組 > 音效討論區
帳戶
密碼
 

  回應
 
主題工具
Fabio
*停權中*
 
Fabio的大頭照
 

加入日期: Jun 2001
您的住址: S.P.B.
文章: 3,641
[轉]好文章分享

來源:http://zaphaudio.com/evaluation.html

引用:
Subjectivity vs objectivity

subjectivity
noun: judgment based on individual personal impressions and feelings and opinions rather than external facts

objectivity
noun: judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices

For those who are not familiar with the usage of these terms in the audio world, subjectivity is an interpetation of performance using ears and music while objectivity is proof of performance using as many scientific measurements and methods as required to make a point.

This is going to be the part of this article that hurts some the most: In a situation where proven methodology and technology exists to do objective testing, people will side with subjectivity when 1)objectivity does not give them the answers they want to hear 2)they have an agenda or interest to protect, or 3)they are incapable of executing objective methods or reading objective results. Why do I never discuss this issue on the forums? Because there's no winning an argument with someone who is stubborn and uneducated, unaware, or uninformed. (ouch, but I can't think of any less harsh terms at the moment)

Don't let a proponent of subjectivity tell you that the right measurements don't exist to properly describe performance. That is a wrong statement, occasionally stated unknowingly but more often stated blatantly on purpose. The right measurements do exist and it's time for people to get with the program. The field of audio is very well known and has been for 50 years. My advice to those who say the right measurements don't exist: Get a decent measurement package, start measuring some drivers, and then start listening to them, in different applications and without filters, alone and in systems with other drivers, just so you can hear exactly what you see. In time, understanding will come.

Beware the subjective speaker review. Anything subjective is likely full of vague useless verbage and is open to very different interpretation by anyone. It's also open to omissions because the review material will always be limited. And, as mentioned above, there's a good chance it's just not true.

A speaker can't be evaluated like a painting. The nature of a painting forces subjectivity while a speaker *can* be objectively tested. Don't forget that a painting is a production conveying the emotions and ideas of the painter, while a speaker is a device for reproduction. There is no room for emotion (or distortion) in a reproduction. A reproduction is judged by one thing: accuracy compared to the original. People shouldn't put on purple sunglasses when going to an art museum.

The objectivity of measurements leaves nothing to the imagination. Issues can not hide or be neglected, intentionally or unintentionally. So obviously, the moral of this story is that objective measurements should be used whenever possible, and subjective reviews should not be accepted or at least considered with a grain of salt.

How often has someone said "Forget the measurements and tell me how it sounds." Or "Learn to listen with your ears." Well I hate to say it, but stubborn and uninformed is rearing it's ugly head again. A lack of understanding without an open mind leads to a refusal of the facts and an embrace of whatever view happens to further that individual's cause. Or worse yet, it may lead to a view that's simply an attempt to make a knowingly guilty person appear smarter or more interesting than they actually are.

All the answers are in the measurements. And I mean ALL the answers. Some people don't know how to interpet the measurements. Some don't want to know all the answers. The mysticism of not knowing how a speaker sounds before trying to use it might make for an interesting, though lengthy design session. That's fine. If that's the route chosen, so be it and enjoy the design process. It would be wrong however to say that's the only route to take. The sad part is that the less technical "guessing" route is the one that's more likely to lead to failure.

The performance of a driver can simply be broken down into two types of distortion - linear and nonlinear. Everything is a subset of that. It's beyond the scope of this article to describe how types of distortion are categorized. As far as the measurements posted on this web site, don't assume that if one type if distortion isn't tested for, something is missing. The linear distortion in the form of frequency response, and non-linear distortion in the form of harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion are the factors that make up 95% of a driver's performance. For example, I don't show "the rise and fall time" of a driver because it's just a derivative of the response curve. It's all in the impulse.

Ears cannot be trusted

Those who don't measure, don't know. Period. They can pretend they know, but rest assured they don't. The human ear, as it is connected to the human brain, is not very smart and easily fooled. If something is wrong with a speaker, people have a hard time telling what it is. Using ears only, the quality of a speaker can only be described in extremely subjective terms. Treble is often described as bright, dull, edgy, recessed, etc. Bass is often described as warm, boomy, deep, lean, tight, etc. But without any accurate basis of comparison, comments like that are meaningless. Don't even get me started by describing how many "veils have been lifted" from the music or how a speaker's "pace rhythm and timing" is affecting the sound. Those vague, meaningless statements are made by people who lack the proper technical vocabulary to describe a speaker's performance. In summary, a driver should be fully measured before a person is qualified to comment on the sound of that driver.

Look at it this way: who is more believable, the guy who says "This tweeter sounds edgy" or the guy who says "This tweeter has moderate 3rd and high 5th order harmonic distortion." Again, who is more believable: the guy who says "This tweeter sounds dull" or the guy who says "The average level of this tweeter is 1.5 dB lower than the woofer above the crossover point." So, while "this tweeter sounds dull" does imply that something might be wrong, there is absolutely nothing there to say what is wrong or even offer any proof that something actually is wrong.

To make a point, some statements could have many different translations. Here's a bunch of examples. We'll start with a single statement made by folks that have been listening to crap.
This tweeter sounds dull. Translation: "I've been listening to a speaker without baffle step compensation for 10 years, and this new design sounds different than my personal standard."
This tweeter sounds dull. Translation: "My last system had Dynaudio D21 tweeters, and now anything without a peak at 10kHz sounds recessed and doesn't have sizzle I need."
This tweeter sounds dull. Translation: "My current speaker has a woofer that did not have the breakup node properly filtered, and now I've accepted that type of sound as normal."
Then we'll try the statements made by folks with well trained ears but other problems.
This tweeter sounds dull. Translation: "I misunderstood the crossover diagram, hooked the tweeter up with the polarity reversed and now I have a broad 40dB null at 2.5kHz."
This tweeter sounds dull. Translation: "My living room is very sound absorptive, and any system with a flat response just isn't enough to overcome the lack of room reflection."
This tweeter sounds dull. Translation: "Oops, my kid pulled the treble knob off my preamp, put it back rotated 45 degrees to the right, and then adjusted it so it visually centered."
Go ahead openly laugh at that last one... but it has happened. Here we have addressed about 1% of the potential reasons why a tweeter may sound dull, and we have not even considered that there may be a problem with the design or an out of spec driver. And good lord, "this tweeter sounds bright" has a potential 500% more translations. Obviously, words can't cut it. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but in a case like this, an actual measurement is priceless.

All that said, it's not impossible to speak in terms of distortion types when listening with ears. But be aware that it takes years of working with real distortion measurements before types of distortion at various frequencies can be properly identified using only ears. Enough said.

Drivers cannot be evaluated in a system

I see this all the time. Statements like "I used XXX driver in my last YYY design and it sounded ZZZ." Replace X, Y and Z with anything. It doesn't matter what, because statements like that don't have any merit. When a driver is used in a system, only the system as a whole can be evaluated. (and even then, as mentioned above, not without measurements) Of course the drivers are making sound, but what you really hear is the crossover, design choices and the listening environment. So many people evaluate drivers while they are in a poorly designed system and then blame the result on the drivers themselves. Only individual and extensive driver measurements are acceptable in evaluating an individual driver.

If distortion measurements aren't part of the first step in selecting and using a driver, the system "tweaking time" will multiply exponentially as the designer struggles to find a configuration that helps hide a driver's faults. All drivers have faults. Without distortion measurements, improper usage of a driver may cause a person to simply give up and come to the wrong conclusion that a driver is a poor performer. In a case like that, the only poor performer is the designer who failed to work around a driver's faults.

Where subjectivity actually works

During the driver evaluation process, any sort of subjectivity is a bad idea. But on the other hand, subjectivity during the system evaluation process is going to be required. At some point, a designer has to decide on tradeoffs. That could mean deciding what types of distortion are more annoying to the designer personally. For example, what sounds worse: a broad, large increase in even order harmonic distortion in the lower midrange and bass or sharper but narrow band odd order harmonic distortion in the upper treble? Sound familiar? It's the old metal vs paper cone debate and it comes down to personal preference. The choice is a subjective one. Some prefer metal cones while many others prefer paper or poly. That's OK. Measurements can tell the truth about a driver but remember that they can't tell you what you like.

When a proponent of subjectivity repeats what I just mentioned above, I'm not going to dispute it. Many things in the end come down to personal preference. A system design decision can be subjective, but testing and evaluating drivers individually must remain objective.

Detail is a crappy word

This is a word that is used by people who don't know how to properly describe a speaker's performance. It is merely a vague indicator that something sounds pleasing, and it means different things to many different people. It could mean more distortion or it could mean less. Detail is an audiophile "power word" that means nothing but sounds good rolling off the tongue. It sure sounds better than just mumbling "I like it" every time a speaker impresses.

I might advise substituting two different words that work a little better: clean and smooth. Clean can mean low non-linear distortion. It would mean a lack of harmonic frequencies that are different from the fundamental frequency reproduced. Clean can mean hearing only what's in the original music and nothing more. Smooth can mean low linear distortion. Of course this could mean a smooth frequency response, but it also means low energy storage which is directly related. Rise and decay time are all related to frequency response smoothness.

The crappy words and phrases list

Aside from the word detail, there are a lot of other audiophile wannabe "power words" and phrases. All are vague, non-descript and useless. Some phrases are deceiving, such as soundstage width, depth, or height. What people are really hearing is a system's power response and it's interaction with the room. Open up a Stereophile and read a page to obtain a plethora useless audiophile terms. Some of the offending single-words might be transparency, image, bite, snap, grain or resolution (in reference to anything analog) and so on.

Multi-word phrases are even worse. Veils have been lifted gets a special achievement award for overused bad cliche. It doesn't end with phrases like pace, rhythm and timing and black spaces between the notes. Any description of music played during evaluation or any description of cables or interconnects used during evaluation also fall under this category. I won't go on for fear that I might cause nausea. Just be aware that there's a lot of it out there. Some of it is obvious and some is not.

Common system comparison errors

Non-linear confused with linear distortion
For those who are not familiar with the terms, non-linear distortion is any type that adds additional frequencies to the original fundamental frquency. Linear distortion is anything related to deviation from flat frequency response. Harmonic distortion by it's nature can make a speaker seem to have a bright tonality. It might measure flat, but upper harmonics not in the original recording can change perception of the tonality. It takes a deep familiarity with a reference recording and a keen ear to be able to tell the difference between linear and non-linear distortion.

Woofer issues confused with tweeter performance
Related to the above, a poor choice of a crossover point on a woofer (too high) can often lead a person to believe there is a distortion or level problem with a tweeter. A woofer could be generating harmonics well into the range that the tweeter is covering. When a listener declares that they don't like a tweeter they heard in a system, 90% of the time it's the woofer and the design that's actually the problem.

Low end distortion is not good bass
Smallish woofers often trick people into thinking bass performance is good. There's a mindset that more is better, but when listening to tiny woofers trying to reproduce the bottom three octaves, you're not hearing "more" bass, you're hearing "different" bass. Bass distortion causes audible harmonics above the fundamental. On a small scale, this sounds like a warm tonality. On a large scale it can't be any better described than aural mud. Be carefull before declaring a woofer as having good bass. If a person is unfamiliar with what good bass is, they could just be hearing muddy distortion.

Dull or veiled vs vibrant or exciting
When comparing the sound of two systems side by side, the first impression is often that the more distorted speaker seems more detailed, and the more accurate one seems dull or veiled. A speaker could often be described as vibrant or exciting by ears that are unfamiliar with clean sound. Even when set to the same level, the more distorted speaker will seem louder, and louder immediately seems better. Eventually, the distortion that causes "vibrant and exciting" will turn to listening fatigue, but it happens slowly. It's usually too slow to make quick A-B comparisons useful. If you really want to compare speakers with your ears, you had better live with them for a good long time. Otherwise, take some measurements to get the truth right away.

The fact that listening fatigue takes a long time to set in does not bode well for making comparisons on a showroom floor, or at a DIY event for that matter. The favorite of a DIY event is most likely not the best performing speaker. On the showroom floor, it's a well known fact that some speakers are intentionally inaccurate to help them stand out. The unknowing consumer then takes home a poor performing speaker only to realize days or weeks later that this speaker doesn't sound as good as they thought. The DIY'er building a project they heard at an event is often disappointed with the result after living with it a while.
     
      
舊 2016-08-26, 10:20 AM #1
回應時引用此文章
Fabio離線中  
tnsshscsa
Advance Member
 
tnsshscsa的大頭照
 

加入日期: Apr 2004
您的住址: 台南西港
文章: 464
求翻譯蒟蒻
 
__________________
岩板
養異型者的惡夢
舊 2016-08-26, 05:42 PM #2
回應時引用此文章
tnsshscsa離線中  
Mozohung
Junior Member
 
Mozohung的大頭照
 

加入日期: Apr 2014
文章: 716
我試著大略翻譯,有錯請指正.

主觀 vs 客觀

主觀:名詞,基於個別的個人感想,感覺與見解作判斷,而非外在的事實.

客觀:基於顯著現象作評判,不受感情與個人偏見所影響.

給那些對於音響的術語不熟悉也不知用法的人:主觀性是以耳朵聽音樂來作解釋;而客觀性是用科學方法測量以驗證性能,作出論點.

接下來是標題有關最傷人的事:在一些狀況下已證實的方法所作的客觀的測試,人們會站在主觀性那一方:

1)客觀性的答案不是他們想要聽到的

2)他們有工作事項或利益要保護

3)無法執行客觀性的方法或讀取客觀的結果.

為何我從不在論壇討論此爭議?因為與頑固又無知的人爭論是不會得勝的.

別讓主觀論者告訴你,正確測量不存在,不足以描述性能.這個論述是錯的,偶然宣稱是不知所以,但往往公然作此聲明則是有目的的.正確測量結果確實存在,而且是時候讓人們

由此課程來了解.音響領域50年來為人所熟知.對那些指出正確測量不存在的人,我的忠告是:取得像樣的測試套件,開始測試drivers,然後聽它們.用不同的應用程式,別用過濾器,

在系統中單獨替換別的drivers,那麼你就能聽到正確的結果,花時間明白它.

要小心喇叭的評論.主觀性的評論充斥著曖昧和廢話,各人差異很大的詮釋.

喇叭不能當成畫作來評價它.畫作的本質迫使主觀性評價,而喇叭"是"可以客觀地測試的.別忘了作出畫作是為了表達情感和想法,而喇叭是作為再生的裝置.再生由一件事作評斷,

與原音作比較.人們不該戴紫的太陽眼鏡去博物館.

客觀測量沒有留下想像空間.爭議不能被隱藏或忽略,有意或無意為之.所以顯然的,這故事的寓意,就是盡可能客觀測量,不要接受主觀評論,或者至少持保留態度.

人們常說:{別管測量,告訢我它的聲音如何.}或{學著用耳朵傾聽}.我討厭這麼說,頑固又無知的面孔又出現了.缺乏了解又沒有開放的心胸,擁抱評更致使事實混淆.

所有的答案都在測量,我確信如此.

driver 簡言之有線性,非線性失真.線性失真出自頻率響應,非線性失真則是諧波失真.交互調變失真影響95%的性能表現.
__________________
宜靜默 宜從容 宜謹嚴 宜儉約 居安慮危 處治思亂
舊 2016-08-29, 02:15 AM #3
回應時引用此文章
Mozohung離線中  
Mozohung
Junior Member
 
Mozohung的大頭照
 

加入日期: Apr 2014
文章: 716
耳朵不可信

有些人不作測量,或者不懂如何作.他們可以假裝他們懂.其餘的人不然.人耳連接大腦,不太聰明且易被愚弄.若喇叭有錯誤,只用耳朵去聽它,人們很難加以描述.只能用很主觀的措詞

來形容它的品質.高音常被形容的,像是[明亮],[陰暗],[銳利]...等.低音則是[溫暖],[朝氣],[深沉],[緊密]..等.沒有精確的標準作比較,像這種評論是無意義的.

這些語意不明,無意義的表達方示,由於人們缺乏適切的技術用語來描述.總之,driver應作充分的測試,然後才有資格作評斷.

看這邊,誰更可信.有傢伙說:[這個高音單元聲音銳利].或者有人說[這個高音單元有適度的第三和第五諧波序列.]

再來,誰更可信.有傢伙說:[這個高音單元聲音陰暗].或者有人說[這個高音單元平均電平少了1.5db在較低音單元的分頻點之上]

所以同樣的論點,絕對可以套用在一些錯誤但又不知錯誤為何,如何說明的狀況.

有個論點,有些表達方式可以有很多不同的闡述.以下是一些例子:

[這個高音單元聲音陰暗]


=> 我十年來所聽的喇叭沒有障板作音階補償,新的設計的聲音與我的個人標準不同.

=> 我之前系統用的是 Dynaudio D21 的高音單元,現在那些發出不到10KHz的,沒有我需要的高頻嘶嘶聲.

=> 我現有的喇叭沒有將分頻點作正確的頻率過濾,現在我習以為常.

以下的表達方式是那些耳朵訓練有素者的其他問題:

[這個高音單元聲音陰暗]


=> 我誤解分頻點示意圖,將高音單元的極性接反,在2.5KHz處音壓少了40db.

=> 我的客廳吸音很強,任何頻率響應平坦的系統,都不足以彌補所欠缺的反射音.

=> 我的小孩把前級的高音旋扭拔掉又裝回去時向右轉動了45度,然後再將它轉到視覺上看來是中點處.


這些事都發生過,還只是百分之一可能 發生的狀況.如果所要表達的是{聲音偏亮},可能的情況會有五倍之多.明顯地,詞語不能切中問題.也許畫作可以有一千種形容,

但這種情形,實際測量是無價的.

以上所述,不可能用耳朵聽就指出失真的種類.必先經多年的失真測試,才可以正確地鑑定不同頻率的失真.

我一直明白,一些表達方式,像是:我使用 XXX driver 在我的 YYY 設計,聲音 ZZZ.X,Y,Z 可以任意代入.


前面提到的,測量不可少.當然 driver 用來發聲,但你聽到的是混合音,設計,選擇以及聆聽環境,所以有許多人在評斷 設計不良的系統時,會將結果歸咎於 driver.應該要個別作密集測量

driver, 才是可接受的評估方式.

在選擇 driver 之前,如果失真測量不是第一步,[苦惱時間]會如指數形式倍增.設計者奮力地找出配置方式來隱匿 driver 的缺點.若沒有經由失真測試,

正確地使用 driver ,會使得人們輕易放棄,作出錯誤結論,以為 driver 表現不佳.在案例中,唯一表現不佳的是設計者,因為他無法有效解決問題.
__________________
宜靜默 宜從容 宜謹嚴 宜儉約 居安慮危 處治思亂
舊 2016-08-29, 02:19 AM #4
回應時引用此文章
Mozohung離線中  
Mozohung
Junior Member
 
Mozohung的大頭照
 

加入日期: Apr 2014
文章: 716
在評估 driver 的過程中,任何主觀性都不是好主意.反之,主觀性在評估系統的過程中是必要的.某些方面,設計者要決定,作出取捨.

任何型式的失人更令人不悅,就是由設計者作決定.例如,大幅增加中低頻的規律性諧波失真,或者更銳利些,較小頻寛的奇數諧波失真在

高頻出現?金屬錐或紙錐或聚合材質.測量可以得到事實,但它不能告訴你,你的喜好是什麼.

主觀論者重述我上面所提到的,我無異議.許多事情到最後是個人的偏好.系統設計者決斷可以主觀,但測量和評估個別的 driver 必須客觀.

細節是個糟糕的字眼

這個詞是那些不會正確地描述喇叭性能的人用的.它是個語意不明的指標,聽起來愉悅,不同的人不同的事物,更多或更少的失真.音響迷的

[強力用詞].我的忠告是兩個不同的名詞--{乾淨}{平順}.[乾淨]意味著較低的非線性失真.它指的是重現基頻而沒有諧波.也可以說是原本的音樂,沒有額外的東西.

[平順]是較低的線性失真.當然也可以是平順的頻率響應.上升與衰退時間和平滑的頻率響應有關聯.

此外還有許多[強力用詞]和詞組.都是語意不詳,不知所云的,無用的.有些詞組是哄騙的.諸如[音場][寬度][深度][高度].人們真正聽到的是力量反應和房間的交

互作用.打開 Stereophile ,可以看到過度的無用術語.例如:透明度,音像,紋理,解析力....等.


非線性和線性失真混淆


非線性失是指原本的基頻增加額外的頻率.線性失真是平坦的頻率響應出現偏差.諧波失真使音調更為明亮,原本錄音中所沒有的更高諧波,會改變音色的感受.熟悉的

參考錄音和敏銳的耳朵才能說出線性和非線性失真的差異.

低音,高音的爭議和混淆

分頻點過高,常使人相信失真或電平問題是由高音單元所造成的.其實低音單元可以發出諧波,在高音單元所涵蓋的頻率範圍內.當聽者表示不喜歡系統中的高音,90%的情況下,

可能真正的問題是在於低音單元的設計

較小的低音單元常使人以為有著更好的低頻.有種心態是多就是好.但當小型低音單元要再生底層的三個八度音,你聽到的不是更多低頻,而是[不同]的低頻.低頻失真造成比

基頻更高頻率的諧波,在小範圍內會有溫暖的音色,而在大範圍內,聲音是模糊的.如果是熟悉良好的低頻者,就會聽出聲音是模糊而失真的在同時比較兩套系統時,第一印象會以為

更多失真的系統,似乎有更多的細節.而更精確者卻以為較陰暗不明晰.喇叭常被描述它的聲音更鮮明,刺激,其實是耳朵不熟悉乾淨的聲音.即使調到相同的電平,有著更多失真的喇叭

聽起來更響亮,一時之間以為大聲就是好.最終,失真造成更鮮明刺激的聽感,也就轉變成聽覺疲勞,但過程很緩慢.因為過程很緩慢.使得A,B比較有效果.如果真的要用耳朵作喇叭的比

較,最好是與它長時間共處.否則可以立刻作測量以得到真相.

其實,某些喇叭有意作出不精確的聲音,以便引人注意.不知情的消費者就帶著表現不佳者回家.幾天或幾周才明白來它並不如想像中的好.有的人聽 DIY 套件一段時間後,經常感到失望.
__________________
宜靜默 宜從容 宜謹嚴 宜儉約 居安慮危 處治思亂
舊 2016-08-29, 02:22 AM #5
回應時引用此文章
Mozohung離線中  
Fabio
*停權中*
 
Fabio的大頭照
 

加入日期: Jun 2001
您的住址: S.P.B.
文章: 3,641
水啦~感謝M大翻譯
舊 2016-08-29, 08:09 AM #6
回應時引用此文章
Fabio離線中  
eddy3366
*停權中*
 

加入日期: Oct 2012
文章: 175
我怎麼看,寫這篇文章的或擁護這篇文章的,才是。。。2)他們有工作事項或利益要保護。
舊 2016-08-29, 10:06 AM #7
回應時引用此文章
eddy3366離線中  
Fabio
*停權中*
 
Fabio的大頭照
 

加入日期: Jun 2001
您的住址: S.P.B.
文章: 3,641
引用:
作者eddy3366
我怎麼看,寫這篇文章的或擁護這篇文章的,才是。。。2)他們有工作事項或利益要保護。


是嗎?

個人覺得這篇寫得合情合理
這個作者無私分享很多實作設計,也分享很多喇叭單體的測試(長期且大量)
台灣的管迷直接拿他的設計來賣錢

我個人擁護這篇文章
我有啥工作事項還是利益要保護?
舊 2016-08-29, 11:11 AM #8
回應時引用此文章
Fabio離線中  
windhm
Senior Member
 

加入日期: Oct 2004
文章: 1,387
引用:
作者Fabio
來源:http://zaphaudio.com/evaluation.html

這網站還真有意思, 之前在看喇叭時都只是看一下頻響, 都沒留意非線性失真這部分.
舊 2016-08-29, 08:20 PM #9
回應時引用此文章
windhm離線中  
eddy3366
*停權中*
 

加入日期: Oct 2012
文章: 175
引用:
作者Fabio
是嗎?

個人覺得這篇寫得合情合理
這個作者無私分享很多實作設計,也分享很多喇叭單體的測試(長期且大量)
台灣的管迷直接拿他的設計來賣錢

我個人擁護這篇文章
我有啥工作事項還是利益要保護?


99.9%的人選購喇叭都是用耳朵聽,這篇文章也許很專業,可是對一般user毫無意義,刻意去吹捧這種讓人看不懂的音響理論,到底有何目的?
舊 2016-08-30, 08:46 AM #10
回應時引用此文章
eddy3366離線中  


    回應


POPIN
主題工具

發表文章規則
不可以發起新主題
不可以回應主題
不可以上傳附加檔案
不可以編輯您的文章

vB 代碼打開
[IMG]代碼打開
HTML代碼關閉



所有的時間均為GMT +8。 現在的時間是09:00 PM.


vBulletin Version 3.0.1
powered_by_vbulletin 2024。